After
testing its strength and
durability one
January afternoon
twelve years ago in a
quiet apartment, it
never once
emerged from hanging in my
closet except for moves across
country and the
time it hung in one
triple-decker and then
another. It’s a good
belt, I said to myself. There’s some
life in it yet.
I wanted to hang on to it, but
she
convinced me it was
time to let it
go. And so I
gave it away for someone
else to hang on to.
Perhaps for
function, or
perhaps to do with it what I couldn’t
finish.
From the years 2000 to 2002 I ran an online zine, Actionattackhelicopter, along with my friends, Brian and Josh. I was fortunate to interview many musicians whose work I enjoyed. I’m posting some of those interviews here for anyone who may have missed them the first time. They have been edited for length, relevance, and to correct for my poor editing skills at the time of original publication. Keep in mind that these were done over ten years ago, thus individuals’ opinions, thoughts, and ideas may no longer be relevant, but they are still interesting as a snapshot of a particular time and place.
This interview was originally published in autumn 2000.
—
Mark Kozelek’s music is something that I have listened to for quite some time now. Whether it be his extensive work with Red House Painters or his recently released solo project, I have been constantly intrigued by his songs—even if it is something as simple as his ability to play the same notes over and over again and yet make them incredibly heartbreaking (“San Geronimo,” “Silly Love Songs”). From what I had read and heard of Kozelek, he’s not had an easy life. Lots of heartbreak (too many songs to list), lots of strained friendships (“Michael”), and lots of distress from life in general (“24”). It could be said that Kozelek is an everyman, for we all seem to struggle with such problems, yet not every man gets the opportunity to do such things as work with Cameron Crowe on a movie or put together a tribute album for one of America’s famed folk singers. Nevertheless, there is a part of Kozelek that I can identify with: his struggles with romance and depression. We talked about all of these things one afternoon as Mark took a bath.
Tell me about the solo album a little. Is that something to just tide people over until new Red House Painters stuff comes out or is that something you’re really exploring?
Oh no. I guess it would just be like you put it. It was just something that was very easy to do, something I had time to do. We’ve had a lot of really ugly legal things going on with lawyers and stuff. This Old Ramon record that we’ve been trying to get back. So Dylan (of Badman Recordings) asked me to come over and he’s got a little studio in his bedroom and we’ll record some songs and put out an EP and I said, “Sure.” It wasn’t really anything I had any intentions of doing and it was so convenient and if it weren’t for him I wouldn’t have even done it because I’m already shopping a record. I wouldn’t want to be shopping another idea or record. So it was very easy and fun and simple.
I heard you’re in a movie. What’s that all about?
Well, that comes out in October. It’s the new Cameron Crowe movie [Almost Famous].
What else has he done?
He did Jerry McGuire,Say Anything, and Fast Times At Ridgemont High. It’s kind of like a comedy. It’s in the early ‘70s. It takes place in 1973. It’s just a movie about rock during that time. There are a lot of drugs and groupies and rock stuff.
What do you play in it?
I play the bass player in the band. The story is basically the story of Cameron Crowe when he was a teenager. He was a writer. He wrote for Rolling Stone and Cream when he was fifteen. He toured with Led Zeppelin when he was fifteen. It just kind of sums up a lot of things that happened to him and put them into a movie. The whole movie is about this fifteen-year-old kid who’s on tour with a band and I’m just one of the guys in the band.
Is it a big role?
It’s something where I’m very present in the movie because I’m one of the guys in the band, but I just have a small handful of lines.
Did you enjoy doing it?
A lot. It was really, really, really fun. I don’t know. It’s just a really overwhelming experience as far as the catering aspect. You’re just so catered to. I just did voiceovers for it about two weeks ago and a limo picked me up at my house, took me to the airport, I flew first class to LA, and another limo picked me up and took me to the hotel. It’s just the treatment is so good on a major movie like that. It’s a Steven Spielberg/DreamWorks production. It’s so major. I had money laying all around my apartment. I had this apartment in Marina Del Ray and I’d wake up and there were one hundred dollar bills under my pillow. The money is just insane. You eat great and you’re picked up everyday and there are beautiful girls on the set everyday. You’re totally catered to. You get a hangnail and five people are at your service trying to figure out how to handle it. It’s really insane. I think I flew first class one time before this movie. Cameron was really cool. I was really nervous because I was the only non-actor and I had never acted before but I got along and it was great.
How’d you get the role then?
Cameron was a fan of the band and his assistants had seen me live and they told me to come in and audition and I thought, “No way,” but two months later they called me and hired me.
Wow, that’s really cool. Did you have to do a lot of actual playing for the movie? Like playing the bass?
Yeah, I played bass, but it was all lip sinking. We all played through playback but I was actually playing along.
In some of your music I get the impression that there is a sense of depression and anxiety. I was wondering if you feel as though you’re a person who suffers from that or not.
Well, it really depends on who I’m around. During that movie, I was hanging around with Jason Lee, the skateboard guy, and some really funny people. Jimmy Fallon from Saturday Night Live. On that set most of those people would probably think, “Mark seems kind of depressed. He seems kind of quiet. He’s not the party animal, or the party person.” I’d say on that set I was one of the more quieter, thoughtful, more introspective people, maybe. In the context of my life up here in San Francisco, I’ve got friends who are really depressed. They have lots of problems. They might say, “Mark’s really got his life together. He has a career. He goes fishing. He goes on camping trips and stuff.” So it really kind of depends. I would say that everyday I feel sad about things or I have regrets about some decisions I’ve made and I have regrets about some people I’ve hurt. Things come up, music I hear, things I see that remind me of these things and bring me down to this level. But at the same time I’m functional. I can get out of bed everyday, I don’t cry everyday, I’m not on any medication for depression. I don’t see any reason to be. But at the same time I’m not skipping down the street and throwing flowers on people’s doorsteps.
[laughs]
It really depends. Sometimes I’m around some people and I think, “God, those people are really happy and confident. Damn.” It makes me feel like, “Fuck…” But then I’m around some other people and I feel like I really have my life together. It just depends. Overall, I don’t know. I can laugh, I have friends that can really make me laugh, or I can get really grumpy about things. I can get mad about things.
You’ve never been diagnosed with anything though, have you?
No.
So how do you combat depression in your life when you feel it coming on?
I don’t really know. There are different things I do. It’s interesting because sometimes when I’m down I feel like I’m gonna call somebody. I’m gonna call one of my friends that makes me laugh and I’m gonna go out. But then sometimes I think that I don’t want to do that and I just want to sit by myself and feel this. I want to try and feel what it’s about rather than run away from it. There are times when I go to bed at night and I sleep like a baby and there are times when I go to bed at night and my head is all fucked up with things I’m really confused about and things I’m upset about. You just toss and turn for a while until you fall asleep. But I don’t really know that I have any real method. It’s such a cliché to say that songwriting is therapeutic but I guess it probably is. The way it’s therapeutic for me is different. It’s not like I feel like, (says melodramatically) “Oh, I’ve worked through this problem. I’ve sat down and written of this thing and I’ve worked through my problem.” It’s not really like that; it’s more like I’m walking around humming a melody in my head and going, “Whoa! I just wrote a good song.” And it’s got this really pretty melody. It’s like, “Whoa, I finally wrote a good song that I can remember the next day and that I can walk down the street and I’m singing it in my head.” I feel proud of myself. I feel like I’ve accomplished something. Maybe I’ve also worked through some problems but I don’t really think about it that way.
How do relationships play into that then? Do you think that relationships have spurned on the depression sometimes? I’m speaking mostly in regards to relationships with the opposite sex.
Well, that’s just such a hard subject that I could just go on for days about it. It’s really, really hard, too, when you get into a position where you’re in this position. When you’ve made records. I’ve got to admit that most of the people I’ve met in my life are through music. When you’re in that position, there’s an element that’s brought in. I’m not saying that people don’t play games; people play games with each other no matter what. But I think that I’ve definitely experienced over the years as more records have come out, and not that we’re in a huge band like Pearl Jam or anything, but there are people I meet through the music that are maybe awed a little bit by the music. Sometimes you meet people and they play games with you. They don’t really treat you like they’d treat somebody else because they think, “Oh, he probably has people that fall to his feet and grovel at his feet so I’m not gonna do that with him. I’m gonna show him that he has to work for it.” I’ve experienced that a lot with dating and it really gets me down and I get really tired of it. It’s really hard to explain. People I know that are in bands, they can relate. There’s a certain thing that gets brought into it that’s just like, “Ugh.” Sometimes you meet somebody and everybody meets on the superficial basis in the beginning anyhow, but you work through it. I’ve worked through that with some people where we weeded through the fact that I was into them because they were hot and they were into me because I was in this band. You get to this other place that’s really nice. I don’t know, man. I’m really affected by relationships. Over the past few years I’ve had a really hard time with it.
I can imagine. Especially with as busy as you’ve been.
Yeah, that’s hard too. Being away from home a lot it’s good…what do I mean? It’s bad. You’re away from home. At the beginning of July I’m going to Sweden for a week and then I’m going to the East Coast at the end of July and I’m going to England in September. It’s great, but it gets hard. Sometimes I’m out for a while and it’s like, “God, I really don’t have anybody here.” It’s tough.
I was reading the Retrospective booklet and as I read it I was amazed at how different things have become for the band over the course of the years. What would you see as the biggest change in Red House Painters from the beginning to now?
There have been a lot of things for me. Lots of good things. I’ve got the full digital cable now and I don’t sleep on a futon anymore. Girls want to talk to me now and they didn’t want to before. There are all kinds of things. As a band there’s a certain amount of confidence we’ve gained over the years. In the beginning there’s a lot of worries and then it just becomes what it is. Which is really a nice feeling. In the beginning, you first get signed and you first start traveling around and there’s this nervousness and everybody wants to look at each other’s hotel rooms and see who has the biggest one. After a while it just becomes what it is. You just go and you just do it. Things happen and you gain certain confidences when certain things happen. Before we were signed we didn’t have any confidence and then Mark Eitzel decided he liked our band and all these people would come and see us and we had more confidence. Then Ivo Watts-Russell signed us to 4AD and we had a lot of confidence. Then other bands ask you to tour with them and you get where there’s a relaxed feeling. I’ve been able to relax more since a few years ago. I’ve been able to relax more with it. You can still really be affected by things like with Cameron Crowe patting me on the back and Steven Spielberg asking me to come down there to audition for something else. There are still things when somebody criticizes you. I was in Spain about a year and a half ago and I did a show in this city called Cadiz and I got off the stage and this girl came up to me and she said, “I just want you to know that I think your Songs For A Blue Guitar record is shit.” I was like, “What?” and she said, “I just want you to know that I think your Songs For A Blue Guitar record is shit and you must think so too because you did not play any of the songs from it tonight.” It really affected me and her boyfriend got involved and we almost ended up throwing down. I was just like, “Jesus!” And for days I was tripping about it. It just seems that no matter what, there are things that can end up bringing you back down.
I think a lot of it too is that because you’re in a band people want to pick on you.
That’s exactly what I was just talking about with the dating thing. I swear to God. Let me give you an example. I will give you a fucking perfect example. I was dating this girl for a little bit. Oh God, I met her sometime just after Christmas or something. She knew who I was and she knew the band. She had a little experience with acting before, and she knew and she heard that I did a movie. But at the same time she said she had never heard of Cameron Crowe, never heard of Jerry McGuire, she’d never heard of Fast Times At Ridgemont High, she’d never heard of Singles or Say Anything. I was like, “Where the fuck have you been living? You been living on some fucking commune?” It’s like, how can you live in America and not have heard of these things? That’s what I’m talking about with being picked on. It’s like, “He thinks he’s really cool so I’m gonna pretend I’ve never heard of any of this stuff.” It’s those kind of things that I would consider being picked on. “You think you’re cool? Well, I’ve never heard of any of that shit. You’ve got to start from scratch with me, buddy.”
“Who looks stupid now?” That type of thing.
These are the same people who when they are on an airplane going to the fucking Bahamas a year from now and that movie is playing on the airplane, they’re the first people that are going to say, “I know that guy!”
Okay, last question here. I’ve gotta ask this because I’ve been wondering about it for a long time. The song “Michael”—did you ever find Michael?
Oh yeah. I haven’t talked with him in a long time. He’s a friend that I’ve kind of grown away from. I saw him a few times in Atlanta when my band went through and played. He’s a real elusive guy.
Is he from back in high school?
No, I met him in Atlanta when I moved to Atlanta. He’s just crazy and he’s been in a lot of trouble. There’s always something happening. But we’ve lost touch. Our lives have just become too different.
I think I’m at that stage where the songs you wrote for the first album are the songs I can relate to the most. I’m kind of that age with losing my friends and growing up like it talks about in the song “24” and all that kind of stuff. But I like all the stuff. It’s great. Major props to you for everything you’ve done because it’s been fun to listen to it all and it’s been a good experience.
Great. That’s cool.
I appreciate you doing the interview.
Hey, no problem.
Are you taking a bath right now?
Yeah.
Yeah, I just wondered because I heard a lot of water splashing around in the background.
The theme are bands whose singers passed away (or solo artists that passed away). Inspired by the late, great Jason Molina.
Tracklisting:
Dead Boys, “Sonic Reducer” (Young Loud and Snotty)
—
Wesley Willis, “Cut the Mullet” (Greatest Hits Vol. 2)
Cramps, “Human Fly” (Gravest Hits)
The Ramones, “Suzy Is a Headbanger” (Leave Home)
Johnny Cash & Carl Perkins, “Everybody’s Trying to Be My Baby” (Unearthed II: Trouble in Mind)
—
Flipper, “Sacrifice” (Not So Quiet on the Western Front compilation)
Boilermaker, “Thinner Runs Through Her” (Leucadia)
Jay Reatard, “We Who Wait” (Blood Visions)
Joy Division, “Transmission” (Substance 1977-1980)
The Heartbreakers, “Born to Lose” (L.A.M.F.)
—
Magnolia Electric Co., “The Dark Don’t Hide It” (Trials and Errors)
And I phoned you when I sliced up my arm.
Angry despair,
alone in my apartment.
Some sharp blade to dull the pain.
The blood pooled on the plastic floor.
We had just met recently
but my intensity and desire
for a connection made me place
a panicked call,
and you responded
(as to why, I cannot imagine)—
bandaged me and spoke calm words.
Every time I see the scars I think of you
and your cats that I fed and played with on your trips to California.
Then that natural
drift that sets upon us
as we age and relocate
for that which life calls us
and you disappeared.
From the years 2000 to 2002 I ran an online zine, Actionattackhelicopter, along with my friends, Brian and Josh. I was fortunate to interview many musicians whose work I enjoyed. I’m posting some of those interviews here for anyone who may have missed them the first time. They have been edited for length, relevance, and to correct for my poor editing skills at the time of original publication. Keep in mind that these were done over ten years ago, thus individuals’ opinions, thoughts, and ideas may no longer be relevant, but they are still interesting as a snapshot of a particular time and place.
This interview was originally published in November 2002.
—
“Peel it the Fuck Down”
Other potential titles for this article would include “I Wish You Were My Dad” or “Now I Just Need To Interview Chris.” I decided to go with the Jawbreaker song for the title, though. It’s from their b-sides, rarities, outtakes album that was released not too long ago. It’s called Etc. It’s really good and I listen to it way too much.
What’s your favorite song on Etc.? Do you have one?
If I was going to point to a couple of songs that made me want to do this thing, it was probably the outtakes. Then, “Kiss the Bottle” and “Sea Foam Green.” Those were the ones I thought deserved to be heard. For the uninitiated, you have to get through some pretty rough recordings until those kick in, but I’m asking people to be patient. A lot of this is out of print so I wanted to put it out there all in one place. Get all my ducks in a row and then shoot them dead once and for all. A lot of that early stuff on the album was left over demo stuff that I threw out there because we just had it around. But “Sea Foam Green,” “Housesitter,” and “Kiss the Bottle” were recorded for other things and they ended up being really great songs.
Did you ever imagine Jawbreaker would be this big all these years later?
No.
Is it annoying or is it cool?
I think it’s great. I imagine it might become more tiresome for Blake because he’s out on the road and doing this other thing [Jets to Brazil] that I think is succeeding on its own merit. I think there’s a lot of crossover. Even he admits that people come up to him and tell him, “Oh, I had this great experience getting back into Dear You and now it’s my favorite record.” I’m sure he loves to hear that. He’s told me so. The first time Jets To Brazil went out, I was worried there was going to be that guy screaming “BUSY!” at them. That first trip out must’ve been a pretty rough one. It’s not annoying. How could it be? It’s incredible. I know how lucky we are that people are still paying attention. I think that if your band breaks up you wonder if you’re going to be one of those bands that completely fades into obscurity or if people continue to buy the records every once in a while. Or if you’re lucky they’re really into it and still—
Paying fifty dollars for it on eBay.
That, or they just go out of their way to come in and see me at my store [Lost Weekend Video]. These guys came in the other day and they were thanking me for being a part of that band. It wasn’t awkward or embarrassing. I was just really happy to hear that. Don’t think I don’t love to hear it. The guy rolls up his sleeve and shows me his Jawbreaker tattoo. What am I going to say to that? I’m not going to be freaked out by that. It’s amazing.
Going with that vein of looking back over things, I’m curious as to what your parents thought of it. I’m sure at first they were typical parents and thought you were fooling around, but now looking back how do your parents view it differently?
When we were playing in the garage, they were tolerant. They were sort of annoyed, but they were pretty tolerant. My sister’s an artist and she moved out when she was eighteen. She moved to New York in 1979 to do performance art and films and such. So, she was living a way alternative lifestyle. My father was one of the original surfers back in the day. He was in Bruce Brown’s first documentary in 1958. He led sort of a weird, nomadic life as well. My stepdad was an ex-hippie, so he was into it. He was a huge influence on me, musically. They were into it, though. But they probably never thought it would go anywhere. And when it finally did they were very proud. My dad still wears Jawbreaker t-shirts wherever he goes and anyone that comes up to him and says anything about it, he’ll have an hour conversation and is very proud about the legacy. So they were always cool about it. My grandmother came and saw us in Al’s Bar in Los Angeles in 1989.
How old was she, then?
She was probably about seventy. So they’ve been pretty cool. My brother plays music and is an actor. Everyone is sort of like that. They’re very proud.
You’re originally from LA, correct?
Yeah. I’m from Hermosa Beach, originally. I grew up there and then moved around a lot. I lived on the west side, I lived in Santa Monica, and then Pacific Palisades. Beach communities, mostly. Oh hey, let me tell you a funny story about my mom. My mom was in line at the supermarket and this is in the mid-‘90s. Some guy is reading the cover story in Rolling Stone about Nirvana or Pearl Jam. She taps the guy on the shoulder and doesn’t know him at all. She says to him, “Excuse me, who do you think is better: Nirvana, Pearl Jam or Jawbreaker?” Like we’re in that same league. Like we’re selling that many records or he’ll even know who we are. And of course the guy’s like, “Jawbreaker? Who’s that?” And of course the guy spends the next five minutes listening to her talk about her son’s band.
My parents would probably just disown me. It’s a nice feeling to know you can come home and not be harassed about it.
Yeah, I think that if I had dropped out of college or something they might have been bummed. If I became a dope fiend they wouldn’t have been as supportive. We were getting it done. I was working, going to school and doing the band.
I know that a lot of the songs that Blake writes are almost like stories, and one of the songs that intrigued me the most on Etc. was “Sister.” So did he literally take his sister out on the road with you guys?
Yeah, she flew down from Nova Scotia.
Why was she in Nova Scotia?
That’s where his mother lives. He goes up there every year. He does his down time there. Yeah, but she flew down and saw us do a couple shows in New York City. She saw us at the Grand and at ABC No Rio. She was just a kid. She was twelve or thirteen. It was great fun having her along. We had a really big fight in the van on the way to Chris’s mother’s house in Connecticut while she was in the car. There was half an hour of total silence. Someone turned to his sister and said, “Well, this is the rock and roll lifestyle. Check it out!” It was really embarrassing.
Overall, was she cool with it? Did she actually want to do it? Because in the song it makes it sound like she thinks you guys are stupid.
She was probably seeing and listening pretty innocently. To look at what your big brother does when essentially it’s like, “It’s a living.” We drive around, plug in, and talk to people. It’s not tough work.
What do you do now?
I own a video store in the Mission District called Lost Weekend. I own it with the old drummer from Engine 88, Dave, and the Jawbreaker tour manager, Christy. I’ve known her since like, 1989 when we played at Smith College and she booked us a show there. She ended up being our tour manager, but after the band broke up no one really had anything to do and we were like, “Why don’t we try opening up a store?” And we did it and that was five years ago.
You just decided to do it in the most expensive part of the country.
Well, it’s funny because it was right before that internet boom took hold. We got a space here for a dollar a square foot. The rent we’re paying is nothing compared to what the people are paying now here. But it worked because the store’s paid itself off. It’s not tough work so it frees me up a lot of time to play music and hang out with my girls.
Were you a big movie buff before you started running the store?
Yeah. When I was at UCLA I was sort of minoring in film. I took some screenwriting classes and production classes. I was always interested in movies. Now, of course, after opening the store I fucking hate movies. I’m inundated here. After you see a certain amount of movies you realize that they’re all pretty derivative and most of them are pretty poor. I like going to the movies just to see a movie, you know? Just the ritual of it. But I don’t have much hope when I go to the movies these days that it’s going to be any good.
No, I totally understand about being inundated. I mean, I don’t own a lot of movies, but I do a zine and when you start getting ninety to one hundred CDs a month, you start to realize how crappy most of the music is out there.
Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. But now I’m going back to music and playing and listening to it. I realized I’ve been playing in bands since I was fifteen, so it’s not like I left it entirely.
Was the situation at Geffen one of those where you had a contact there and then that contact got fired or quit or something? Because that seems to happen to a lot of indie bands.
We got signed by Mark Case (sp?) who was working with Nirvana, Hole, Beck, and Sonic Youth. We tried to get it in our contract that if he left we could get off the label. It’s called “key man.” Meaning that if your point dude bails, you can get out. We couldn’t get them to do that, but Mark said he’d stick around and he did. We broke up and Mark was still there and then he left later and went to Grand Royal.
On the Etc. album, was it hard to put together your thoughts for every song?
I asked people if they thought it’d be cheesy to do liner notes and everyone said that people wouldn’t mind. I thought it might come off as too self-congratulatory or self-important, like this whole culture of revisiting old works on the DVD or Behind the Music. I thought it might smack of that. So that’s why on mine I just kind of blurted out the first thing that came to my mind. I definitely had to name-check people, too.
Adam with Jawbreaker artwork
One last thing I wanted to ask, your daughter who is five, does she know about Jawbreaker?
Yeah. She knows.
Does she listen to the music?
Yeah, I’m sure she’s heard it, but she’s really into classical music. She’s kind of obsessed with it. I think that’s something that’s really cool about her because I haven’t pushed that on her. She’s just taken to it. I gave all these old Jawbreaker shirts to my friend who works at the video store and she made a quilt for my kids. They have a Jawbreaker blanket. It’s got all the shirts on both sides and it’s lined with this silky material. So when she goes to sleep at night she says, “Where’s my Jawbreaker?”
That’s cute.
But she’s seen me play with J Church. The other day when we got the artwork for the CD back I was showing it to her and she thought that was real neat. But she probably doesn’t totally understand. She probably takes it for granted and thinks that everybody’s dad plays in a band.
Does she know Blake and Chris?
Yeah. Chris is great with kids. And Blake was really great with her. We went and spent some time on the East Coast and a bunch of us went to the beach and they got along famously.
Wow. That’s cool. Whenever I talk to bands who have kids, I always like hearing about it, because my parents aren’t artistic or anything. I grew up with normal parents. They’re business people. For me, I would love to have artistic parents. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I wish you were my dad. [laughs]
[laughs]
That might present a problem, though, because I’m twenty-three and you’re what? Like thirty?
I would’ve been eleven or twelve. I was twelve years old when I met your mother.
Well, I never thought I looked like my dad too much and the more I keep staring at the Jawbreaker albums, it just makes sense.
